Dec 15, 2009


Today in the U.S. two cows were killed by hunting arrows.
The other 128,998 were snuffed the usual way:

If one person is unkind to an animal it is considered to be
cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals,
especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned
and, once large sums of money are at stake, will be defended
to the last by otherwise intelligent people.-Ruth Harrison

Please - Go Vegan


Angie said...

Our culture has so much confusion around animals! Why is it so hard for people to connect their pork chop with Babe? Killing 2 cows warrants animal abuse charges, but slaughtering 100,000 A DAY for dinner, well that's ok. Absurd.

Bea Elliott said...

Yes it is absurd... But it's exactly what they must do in order to continue with the status quo. The easy thing to think is that we are all so kind and "civilized". If they look too close the illusion is just that...

I spent some time looking around your blog - You have a very honest approach! :)
Thanks for dropping by.

Bruce Dracass said...

The several million children that starve to death each year would be happy to have some veal, milk, pork,beef or eggs. Canada's system is much different than in the U.S.Regardless our forefathers understood the natural lifecycle,and accepted it. I can't understand the desire to not eat meat. It's not normal or rational.The few vegs. I've run into don't even look normal they lack so many nutrients.

Bea Elliott said...

Hello Bruce... Yes, about 1 billion people starve every year because we have a system that feeds animals the food others could eat. It takes 6 - 10 times more plant based food to make "meat" than it would to feed that vegetation to people directly.

Oh... and did you hear about the recent "veal" recall? Or the 125 tons of beef recalled? It's a system of reckless waste and cruelty.

The "natural lifecycle"? To house billions of animals in warehouses -and slaughter them when they are infants??? For a "food" that makes us unhealthy? Not hardly.

I have not consumed meat for 8 years and am in much better physical shape than my peers who do eat animal products. Please google "vegan athletes" - This might set things straight for you.

Good day.

bruce dracass said...

The tofu you call healthy is so processed it looses most of its nutrient value. 48% of all food poisionings are traced back to fruits and vegetables. The chemicals farmers use that health nuts complain about are sprayed directly onto fruits and vegtable crops The commercial fertilizer farmers use that health nuts complain about is used directly to produce plant protien crops. Vegans who have not been totally brainwahsed by propaganda are returning to a common sense balanced diet that includes meat and dairy. The problem of world hunger is a complex issue that will not be solved by radicals attempting to get others to stop eating meat. Think about this one for a minute, about 50% of all food is wasted in canada and the U.S., also there has probably been just as many fruit and veg. recalls as meat. There have been no meat or vegtable recalls on our farm. Suppose for an imaginary moment that peta's go vegan campaign did take hold, what would we do with all the animals on earth? The whole go vegan idea has no basis or intelligent merit. I'm going to launch a go veal campaign.

Bea Elliott said...

Hello again bruce... I don't know why everyone thinks that all vegans eat is tofu. It's a wrong assumption... I eat tofu about one/twice a month so I'm not that concerned about it loosing nutrional value...

I'm eating a lot of beans, legumes and peas... It's the best return for my health and my money... Protein packed, affordable and tasty...

That along with locally grown fruits and veggies - I have little concern over my health... Thanks very much.

I'm on a daily recall notification from the USDA - I can assure you... only a fraction of fruits and veggies are "recalled" in comparison to "meat".

Your question about what would we do with all the domestic livestock is simple! First of all, this will not happen over night. It will be a slow progression of "farmers" breeding less and less as the time passes. Already, we can see a down-scale in "production" - The numbers are not as high for breeding pigs, cows or chickens --- A consequence of reduced "world demand". Animals will be slowly phased out of our diets... People are choosing more compassionate and healthier alternatives! Eventually, we will stop breeding the critters altogether! Problem(s) solved!

Good luck with your "veal campaign"... I'm sort of figuring you probably already do a fair amount of baby stealing/baby eating already. Maybe if you stopped to think for a moment, you would see that this is not "necessary" nor is it kind.

bruce dracass said...

It is true that animals eat a lot of grain, but they also eat a lot of soy meal, canola meal, grain screenings and down grade grain that people don't want. Chalk one up for the animals. They also eat a lot of forage which humans can't digest, and much of the forage is in places not condusive to cropping, ie bush. Chalk another one up for the animals. There is no sound basis anywhere to suggest eating meat is bad. The big problem we have is eating too much of it. Seriously I've seen restaurants that serve a 22 oz steak. A portion or serving is 4 oz. The other problem society in general has is lack of exercise, there is no denying that. And consumers need to choose unprocessed meats low in saturated fat and cholesterol, like veal. We do raise grain fed rose veal outside, no confinement, not tied up, we take very good care of them, feed and water in front of them 24/7, lots of straw and shelter;and they are certainly not babies when they go to market,they usually weigh about 650 lbs. The industry has changed so much over the last 25 years, yet there are still blogs and web sites that just simply seem to want to bash agriculture, and veal farmers seem to get lots of bashing. Too bad, the industry didn't get credit for the changes it has made. One article I saw said calves suffer from chronic diarreah: if that were true they would dehydrate and die in 2 or 3 days. And their feed is liquid poison: their feed is milk or milk replacer made from skim milk powder and whey powder, with added vitamins and minerals. If the only way ar. writers can get people to go veggie. is by printing a intentionally biased story, then the journalism is in very poor context, and taste. Most people writing derogatory articles about agriculture have no experience or background in agriculture, yet somehow they can put biased stories in print and consumers take it to heart, unbelievable.We too have concerns with our health and well being,unfotuanetly agriculture has become big agri business, and small farmers who care about their land and livestock are being squeezed out every day, thats because consumers in general want cheap food.God fed the people with meat and bread.

Bea Elliott said...

Farmers should plant more food for human consumption... I'm not fond of competing with animals for my plant foods.

"There is no sound basis anywhere to suggest eating meat is bad." Well... here's what some doctors have to say about what to eat:

... and even a fireman:

So sorry though... What you call "care" to Others does not match my criteria. I don't believe one can "care' for an animal - Then deliberately kill it --- for money.

I also disagree that your "veal" calves are not babies... They would normally stay with "mom" till about 8 to 12 months old. When they are sent to slaughter at 4 - 6 months old - they aren't even termed as "adolescents" yet. They aren't even close to "puberty" yet... But then again, I don't think it's right to kill "old cows" either.

Personally, I don't care what "feed" or "milk replacer" calves are given... The fact remains that cows are enslaved into a life of constant impregnation. Their young are taken from them... By force. I just don't understand how anyone can see that feeding a calf some artifical food rather than the milk it was intended to have is acceptable!

"God fed the people with meat and bread"... That depends on whose "gOd"... Whose bible. We are all endowed with free will to determine what resonates as kind and just treatment to Others. If we can survive without the killing - (and we can)... There simply is no valid reason not to do so.

Finally - No one will betray their faith if they refuse to kill or eat animals.

Bruce Dracass said...

Any animal that has the power ability to knock you down trample you and possibly even kill you is no baby.[speaking from experience] I read an article the other day written by a "doctor" that said meat has no protien, vitamins or minerals in it. Doctor or quack? There is a web site called Quacks and Quack watch, its well worth the read. As I said no sound basis. The high majority of the population who are omnivoir over eat, that is the big issue/problem, not the fact that they eat meat. Those who overindulge-bulge. I noticed you side stepped exercise. Doesn't matter what a person eats one will can hardly be healthy without exercising, or doing a job that incorporates exercise. I dont know of any farmer who leaves calves on a cow for 8-12 months. Calves raised on cows are typicially weaned at 4-6 months. Whether a cow is beef or dairy, she normally gives birth once a year, ave. life is 8-12 years for any cow. I don't get it where you say your competing for the food with animals as the bulk of their diet is alfalfa,grass and grains we cant digest without artifical processing. I could also get you some soy meal and canola meal. If you would like I'll certainly give you a bale af hay, if you need it. Milk replacer is not artifical,again it is made from skim milk powder, and whey powder, vitamins and minerals, and the calves love it. Whey and skim are the left overs from making cheese, ice-cream infant formula, yogurt etc. It is made from whole natural milk,and contains no antibiotics. Its not like were feeding a synthetic man made compound. Also if you put a bottle of milk to a calf he will happily take it and follow you away from its mother, nothing forcefull there. Infact some calves have great difficulty finding the udder and much prefer to be hand fed. The strange thing about grains is that hardly any are digestable without processing, whereas animals do the processing, naturally. Seriously you dont sit down to a bowl full of barley,oats,and corn straight from the combine and pour water on it and eat it do you? Livestock can take those same grains unprocessed along with a lot of other things we cant digest and make some very fine and tasty meat for us ready to cook- no processing required, and face it there is nothing that ignites the taste buds like the aroma of juicy steaks or chops sizzling on the B-B-Q. Thats a natural thing to do, I'll take that over refined and processed foods that have had pesticides, herbicides and fungicides sprayed directly on them anyday. As far as veal goes,some people call it a byproduct of the dairy industry, I call it a value added product of the dairy industry, its a quality product, low in saturated fat and cholesterol, and we raise them very ethicially; and veal consumption is on the rise.

Bruce Dracass said...

I realize protien can be found in edible beans: just 3 Big problems there -one gas/flatuence two top soil loss-erosion, edible beans leave fields with little to no trash cover top soil loss is high compared to most other crops. 3 lots of chemical use, in sustainable agriculture were trying to cut down on chemicals, those chemical residues do find their way into water systems, as does animal waste sometimes. When I took agriculture some many years back, we were told then there were some chemical traces being found 80 feet below ground surface. Grandma who is 106 is living proof that a balanced diet of meat[twice a day] vegetables, fruit, and dairy products is they key to a long happy life. What really is the difference between killing a plant or an animal? All the grains eaten have an endosperm in them, which if planted and watered would grow, correct. I have no problem with people going veg., if they are not being swayed into it by lies about the livestock industry, or biased stories printed, and or books that peta distributes to school children.I do see your point of view and I doubt you'll ever see mine, but when your trying to sway someone into a veg diet at least tell them about how crops are produced, [tell the whole truthful unbiased story] Is the problem that unbiased stories wouldn't sway anybody? I also realize there there are organic and natural produce available, there is also meat produced naturally and free range; like ours.......not every farm is a c.a.f.o. Some of us still do it the old fashioned way. Something you may want to mention that in that unbiased article is that in North America there are .6 million metric tonnes of pesticide used anually in crop production, not to mention herbicides and fungicides. In California alone it is estimated that every acre of strawberries has 300 lbs/active ingredient pesticide applied per acre/year,so are those strawberries any better or worse than meat? Finally what I meant was God was telling us to eat a balanced diet, it is not about faith betrayal, it's about using common sense. One question I have for you is how much agriculture/hands on farming experience do you have? I'm hoping that in my go veal campaign I can get Pam Anderson to bare it all for veal!!!

Bea Elliott said...

Hello Bruce... I have to ask - do you sincerely think that "gas flatuence" in humans should justify the taking of a life??? And I'm not going to argue agricultural "systems" with you either... Except to say that there are solutions to every "problem"... Greenhouse & hydroponic farming, to name a few... Furthermore, I have great confidence that if we can walk on the moon, we can figure out how to grow and eat enough "earth-based" foods. Certainly on an individual level, most people in the civilized world, can now walk in any store and find enough plant based foods to choose from.

"What really is the difference between killing a plant or an animal? " Yes, even plants have a genetic "code" geared to "life"... But plants have no "awareness" of that life... The interest in continuing is merely in their chemical make up. Do you agree that all animals wish to continue their lives? And that their lives must be forceably "taken" from them? It is because they, like us, will fight (to the death) for the life we own. In the end it is all each of us has...

It's tragic that the thing we share closest to animals... The love our lives; Should be ignored with such brutality and for such trivial reasons...

Bea Elliott said...

" lies about the livestock industry"... Okay, at the very least can we agree that the "livestock industry" manipulates it's "residents"? Can we say that "farmers" adjust and tweek nature by selectively "breeding"? Castrating? De-horning? AND by confining and restricting animals? I know, you will say all this is for their own good... for their "protection"... But in truth, it all comes down to the reason of "protecting" or "improving" your "property". This property is cared for by you only because it will benefit you... Either as money or as "food", "clothing", etc. "Livestock" is just a different word for "cash"... Good "care" of animals is a matter of protecting an "investment" - It has little to nothing to do with the desires of the animal. The animal desires to live. This elementary desire must be disregarded in order to collect on the "goods" gained at their "use" or their death. I'm not fond of flesh peddling... Sorry.

"Some of us still do it the old fashioned way." Does this matter to the squealing pig or crying goat - when they are dragged somewhere for their final moments? Would it matter to you if you lived the best possible life imaginable, but still someone cut it short? You'd be screaming that it was terribly unfair, unjust and wrong! A moment of empathy with a terrified farm animal would show you they would say the same, if they could.

"Finally what I meant was God was telling us to eat a balanced diet, it is not about faith betrayal, it's about using common sense." And what I meant was to challenge your appointment of "whose god" is "gOd"? There are many religions that don't believe in animal killing/meat eating at all. Are you saying that those beliefs are invalid? And based in religion or not, I can still use "common sense" which tells me it is wrong to take an innocent life if I don't have to. Unless you are a bushman or an Inuit - there's no justifyable reason to choose a food that required the taking of a life. There are just too many other fine alternatives. And that is the "common sense" of it.

Lastly, "farming experience" - is a totally irrelevant point. We are debating the belief and practice of animal killing... If I had 30 years experience... or 30 minutes worth of "hands on" knowledge --- but still argued what I argue now - What's the difference?

Ever hear of Howard Lyman? He walked away from a life time of cattle ranching... So did Harold Brown They are both vegan now. And I'm quite certain they would argue the very same points I do... That animals have a right to their lives, regardless of what "profit" or "convenience" can be gotten from taking those lives away.

But if you must know, I am a generation removed from "old fashioned farmers"... Married to someone "farm raised". Consequently, I've gleaned enough information about "livestock" and "crops" to know how to grow vegetables in my home garden; And enough information about animals to know to let them alone.

And thus far doing so has done neither me, nor my family any harm - In fact, just the opposite is true.

bruce dracass said...

Growing up on a farm and having never left I've seen many changes in our area. We live in an area well suited to short season vegetable and bean production. However in my younger days when the farms were small, and everybody had livestock there was still loads of pasture land the top soil did not blow away like it does now. Potatoes and beans are undoubetedly 2 of the worst crops for top soil loss and chemical use.The gas thing was a joke but if everybody goes bean, we'll probably have worse problems than we have with the livestock, but the top soil loss is no joke, in fact it is a very serious issue.No we certainly dont agree that livestock manipulates its residents. Our veal calves are not dehorned or casterated. Our beef cattle are polled meaning they have no horns. As far as restricting animals yes they are fenced in so as to keep with the neighbors. We do not confine our veal calves to tiny pens, as is a common misconception/lie about veal. We have a very common sense five animal freedoms guide which is spelled out by the Winnipeg Humane Society, which after I read it I felt go above and beyond their guidelines. Looking back to where the animal issues, arose I often think of Peta. Ethical treatment of animals. My version of that would be to give animals quality feed, care and shelter, and to not beat or treat them in an unkind way. I dont see how making racy sex videos has anything to do with ethical treatment of animals. I saw the "vegitarians have better sex video" [mabye you can tell us is it true?] I was amused to say to least.What a waste of donated money. Nor can I see how most their other preposterous acts relate in any way to animal treatment. Just some new ideas they have drem't up to keep the cash rolling in from the celebrities, and others. I am glad to see that you home garden, however I noticed you side stepped the chemicals used on crops and vegetables, and exersise, It's really not so much about what we eat, Its really about a total balanced lifestyle.Everybody should grow their own garden. Near Winnipeg there is a local food charter, who is doing a project called the landless farmer. They are using city greenspace, and utilizing it to grow food in the summer, instead of just cutting grass all summer, and the city doesn't have to pay somebody to cut the grass. Smart! 1 million acres of farmland disapear in the U.S. every year to urban sprawl.

Bea Elliott said...

Hi again... We may have reached a few points of agreement - I'm with you on "urban sprawl"... It seems no one wants to address the issues of human population. And if our population is going to continue increasing we need to use less resources... A meat eater's diet requires more than 3 acres/year. A plant eater's diet less than half an acre.

We will at some point in the future be forced to eat lower on the "food chain" from necessity - Never mind the ethical implications...

On peta - Do you see anything on my site that supports or advocates for peta?

And finally on the calves that you don't tie up... Compassion and respect for Others does not say you "reduce" unnecessary harm... True compassion means to "eliminate" it as much as possible.

By your logic - (that your system is better than other farmers) - Is like saying a man who only beats his wife once a week is better than one who beats his wife daily. Of course all of it is wrong.

Is it better to inflict less harm than more? Sure... But if in the end you're still causing needless suffering and death - What's the effort worth?

If we really wanted to treat animals with kindness we would stop breeding them. But that brings up economic interests... The interests of "property" will always be compromised to the interest of the property owners.

And here is where we have the great divide. You see animals as "things" meant to extract value from. I see animals as beings with their own purpose, completely removed from my wants and desires. If I can live without harming them... Why should I?

bruce dracass said...

I see you responded before I was finished Furthermore, our ancestors taught us to make use of everything, however there seems to be some kind of problem with some people about leather. Now of all the things I've worn leather is number one. It is definately the strongest and most durable. Our animal rights friends would like us to believe man made is better-not so. The smoke you see billowing out of some factories is where some of these man made items come from which are a large contributor to emmissions, and the man made stuff is not nearly as durable so our landfills continue to fill up with these lower quality products. Also some of thase plants/factories are where the chemicals used in crop production are made.Do we tweak nature by selectively breeding? Improved genetics is certainly not playing with or tweaking nature.If a bull calf born is obviously not breeding quality, it is steered, and not kept for reproductive purposes.That is just a sound management practice.As far as making a bull into a steer we slide an elastic ring on and they barely feel a thing, it viewed as very positively by vets,and it is ethical treatment. I certainly do not fall in love with my animals. I like them take good care of them,thats it,and yes occasionaly I profit from them, but its been a while since we've seen any black ink on the books. Those people/web sites you mentioned I am not familiar with, there have been many people quit farming, there is probably someone out there who quit grain farming and wrote a sob story about how he couldn't stand to see all those bad chemicals being sprayed onto his fruits and vegtables, and he couldn't bare to watch his top soil all blow and wash away. Just as you say we dont need to kill animals for food I could present the same kind of lop sided argument about how we dont need to kill plants for food and we could live on meat. Where I live it is about their protection, as temperatures sometimes hit -55 degrees, no wonder it is so sparsely populated here. From what I'm reading in your last comment, there it seems like you can talk to plants and animals, is that so? I know I could sell off all my cattle and make a far wealthier living by growing marijuana, however the authorities would frown on that practice, and I dont like my soil blowing away so I'll stick with cattle. You say were debating a belief which is true, but I just cant understand where and how you formed such a belief, you say you've been a vegan for 8 years, so you must have eaten meat before. I believe in tradition and can still not see and never will see the intellingent sound basis for the veg. movement. And even you have to admit there is nothing that ignites the taste bubs like steaks or chops sizzling on the B-B-Q The tradition I grew up with meats/dairy/fruit/vegetables is broadly considered quite normal and common sense, were those the 4 food groups I just listed? I"ve been inside slaughter plants and I have never seen an animal"dragged off" for his final moments as you put it. In Canada we have more rules and regulations than enough. On your last point about farming experience I'm going to give you a hypothetical situation. Suppose you were going in for surgery, One doctor had no experience and the other had 30 years, which one would you want to do the surgery? Experience does make a big difference in my opinion. Now eating meat and dairy and vegtables never done our family any harm either; in fact agriculture gets the bulk of the credit for the increase in the longevity of life in the last century. Has anyboby in your family rolled past 106? And lastly what do you think of my idea of getting Pam Anderson to bare it all for veal?

Bea Elliott said...

Hello yet again... I will only address things that haven't been covered or deliberately ignored for lack of interest... Like the Pam Anderson comments....

"our ancestors taught us to make use of everything" - Yes, and at the rate we're going we need 4 planets to sustain us...

Our ancestors lived in a more primitive time and never had access to the choices we do now. What is it about "evolving" that frightens you so?

"Leather" - To paraphrase, "If we can go to the moon surely we're inventive enough to replace *leather*".

Culling for "sound management practices", keeping others for "reproductive purposes" and defining living beings by their "breeding quality"... I get it - You see animals as property. I don't.

"it is ethical treatment" - Again, I disagree.

"I like them take good care of them..." I'll finish this sentence for you - "until I kill them". See how silly that sounds when you cut to the chase?

The links I gave you were for former cattlemen - livestock folk... Not "grain farmers".

Yes, you could argue that "we dont need to kill plants for food" - BUT, you'd have to go back to the very first "buffet" in the Garden of Eden and undo every religious myth... After all, it did all begin with vegetation.

"it seems like you can talk to plants and animals" - I can "talk" (and listen) to my conscience.

Of course I ate meat before! But, I was indoctrinated into it - I had absolutely no "choice". We're all fed on "tradition" - Till we have the courage to question and discover truths for ourselves.

But no, nothing on the BBQ "ignites my tastebuds"... In fact the opposite is true - Now that I know what I know it is quite a nauseating and unholy stench. Now throw some portabellos on the grill and I will will work up a fine appetite!

On "tradition":
Not all traditions are worthy of admiration and respect. Tradition should never be an excuse for cruelty, and surely harmful practices should not be condoned just because they are cultural practices,”
Michele Pickover, a spokeswoman for Animal Rights Africa

"Experience and surgery" - I don't quite understand the point, but I'd trust the "experts" when they advise getting a second (and third) opinion. And without regret, that's just what I've done regarding my food choices.

bruce dracass said...

About the surgery, I thought you might get it, but you didn't so I'll spell it out for you. The inexperienced surgeon who basicially is wet behind the ears, would not be my choice to do the surgery. People who haven't farmed and basicially know nothing about agriculture should not pretend to be experts on agricultural issues.You should really check with some more experts, a good one would tell you as would I a well balanced diet, meat included, combined with exercise, is the key to a healthy lifestyle.I cannot understand why you would rather see top soil blow away, rather than protect the precious chernozemic soil layer. We dont need leather, but the alternative is no better, maybe worse, if it ain't broke, dont try and fix it. Have you not noticed the huge landfills around cities? I like them, I take good care of them, and when they are cut up many people will be happy to get their meat low in saturated fat and cholesterol. You haven't addressed some of the things I've said: it's not lack of interest, but you have nothing to say because you know I'm right. There are always choices and trade off's If we dont take care of the top soil, there will be no plants or animals.

bruce dracass said...

One thing you are dead wrong on is that experience is an irrelivent point. If that were true should I then offer advise on launching space shuttles, or maybe even jump in one and go for a cruise? Should I go to Harvard and offer medical advise to students on how to perform heart surgery? Does that help make the point a little clearer? Here is the great divide actually is Animal rights........Animal ethical treatment and quality care. In the "animal rights" movement how do you propose to deal with all the undesireable ones, the rats mice,vermon,coackroaches,bed bugs,etc. Thats why I cannot see animals being put on a pedastal or on the same plateau as people. Or does "animal rights" only apply to the domestic ones? Our ancestors taught us to use everything, and we are inventive enough to replace leather and fur, but at what cost to the enviornment? Huge cost. The problem is somehow something got missed in the generational transition, todays society is grossly wasteful. Waste is one of our biggest problems, in our throw away society. The cow maybe jumped over the moon but she didn't come from the moon, livestock is as "earth based" as any plant. I could if I had the desire to make a one sided article,about how we dont need plants, and could live on meat, but that wouldn't make much more sense than your living on plant theory. I think if you want to you could refer "human trafficers" and people who sell body parts as..... flesh peddlers, but without putting a sick biased twisted slant into the livestock discussion you can't sway anybody. Where do you get your figures that it takes 3 acres/year? I calculate less than 1, some of which is land not suited to crop production, so probably a plant eaters/meat eaters land use is similar. Also livestock manure/compost is excellent natural fertilizer and increases soil organic matter, thus reducing our dependancy on commercial fertilizer, if you knew anything about agriculture, you would realise that. When you are looking up stats. look at how much lime is already being used, why lime because the top soil is already gone, known in ag. terms as land rape. Again there is no sound, logical, intelligent basis for a veg. diet. The only way one can be swayed to switch to a veg. diet is by using the emotional side of livestock raising; because you can not win this debate on merit, and you know it, grasping at straws.

Bea Elliott said...

So I should ask a farmer about nutrition? I've checked with enough doctors to clear a meatfree diet with them...

American Dietetic Association:
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes."

BTW - Even my vet approves of my dog's meat-free diet... He's 85 lbs of glowing health! :)

"leather"... Formaldehyde, coal-tar derivatives, and various oils, dyes, and finishes-some of them cyanide-based-are used to turn animal skins into finished leather goods. Most leather produced in North America is chrome-tanned. According to the US Environmental Protection Agency, all wastes containing chromium are hazardous. Tannery effluent also contains large amounts of other pollutants, such as lime sludge, sulfides, and acids.

I wear canvas which has the lowest environmental impact! :)

And top soil? I thought I already answered that... We need to stop fattening animals with plant foods. We feed animals 6 - 10 times more plants then what could be consumed directly to people instead.

Please check this out - It will address your query about sustainable animal agriculture:

Bea Elliott said...

Apparently our posts got crossed I'll attempt to fill in what wasn't originally covered:

On dealing with what you call "undesirable animals"... What you're asking actually is where to draw "the line". My "line" is drawn in pencil... and it may vary according to "survival". At the very least - for now - we can all agree that cows, pigs, chickens, goats, sheep, etc. are not a "threat" to our wellbeing. What you're attempting to do is say as long as we "might" need to control populations of "pests"... We might as well kill 10 billion "food animals" as well. That whole argument just doesn't make sense.
Start with the things we can change - And that is to stop slaughtering INNOCENT animals. That is something we CAN do now.

I agree about "wastefulness"...

Land use: From a Cornell University study:

"A person following a low-fat vegetarian diet, for example, will need less than half (0.44) an acre per person per year to produce their food," said Christian Peters, M.S. '02, Ph.D. '07, a Cornell postdoctoral associate in crop and soil sciences and lead author of the research. "A high-fat diet with a lot of meat, on the other hand, needs 2.11 acres."

And we haven't even discussed greenhouse gasses or water use:

"natural fertilizer" - vegetation can also be composted and have you ever heard of plans for "Humanure"?

And so sorry... But I'm not going to take the fall of using "emotional side" of this argument... I've provided you with countless, sound, scientific references to each one of your points.

It is you who has attempted to muddy the water with comments about the "sizzle on the grill" and with "tradition". Honestly, those are very subjective and "emotional" factors.

Bottom line - We - meaning anyone in a "civilized" world - don't "need" to eat animals. We only do so because of economics and "taste". Neither is a good reason to take innocent lives.

bruce dracass said...

Well I checked out Dr. Oz, and that is crazy but even though it goes against the principles I live on, beer , tobacco, caffiene, meat, dairy, and even though I've never gained a pound in 35 years, my Body mass Index is right on, I am going to try one vegan meal, I ran it past the kids, they think I've lost my marbles, but I will try one meal. Tomorrow you have to promise me you will try one serving of meat. Your choice doesn't have to be veal. What can I drink, I see milk in the picture on the left on Ozzie's web site I thought that was a no no to a veg. I guess I can have beer. I'm glad I went to his web site definately not getting enough sex. Good tip Oz. Oh and he stresses exercise, exercise, exercise, I see you still haven't mentioned it.

Bruce Dracass said...

Couple quick things you started the emotional thing with the pics. at the top.Is plant breeding and selecting any different than with animals? Sager Weeler open a new era of plant breeding when he developed Marquis wheat, plant breeding has never been the same since, which is good, so whats the big deal with livestock, whats rhe problem with improving the genetic lines?

bruce dracass said...

Hi Bea. Woops Saeger Wheeler did not develop the original Marquis wheat, he developed Marquis 10b. So cross polination, disease resistant plants, hybrid varieties of crops, vegetables, and trees are good practices, one report suggests that in the U.K. New plant development has increased yields as much as 250% in the last 40 years. Is that a bad thing? Livestock genetic selection and cross breeding, aren't much if any different. Maybe someday we'll develop a bovine species that will not poop, or one that can eat stones and dead trees and turn them into top soil, but we'll never find out unless we try. Man never made it to the moon without trying. Crop development never would have got to where it is today without plant breeders trying. Well we did the vegan supper last night. I wouldn,t say it was a big hit, but it wasn't all bad either. Why is it so hard to get kids to eat vegtables. The big problem I find with only veggies on the plate is; an hour or two later I' looking for another plate full. Granted I was full but the only comparrison I can think of would be to eating fluff. It doesn't go as far or last as long as meat. I can't get my work done if I gotta stop and eat every hour or two, it was a good experiment though. One thing I did find though in "Vegetarian Society Info. Fact Sheet" was that a vegan diet does not have any vit. b12 in it, as it is only found in meat, dairy and eggs. So I will stick to the norm, rather than buying unnecessary synthetic supplements, when I can get it naturally and traditionally, from wholesome food.

Bea Elliott said...

Ah, so you are going to try one vegan meal? Odds are you already have several times in your life. Haven't you ever eaten a meal without meat, eggs or dairy? For instance a stir-fry? Bean burgers? Vegetable medley? Sure... You've probably eaten many "vegan" meals in your life...

As for me - I don't have to "try" meat. I have more than 4 decades of knowing. And really, I would not want to contaminate my kitchen again... You know the schpeel from the usda: seperate, seperate, seperate... No thanks; Too many bad bacterias to introduce to the house - or my body.

Emotional pictures? They are just factual - no photo-chopping here. I am not responsible for what emotions are stirred in others when they see them...

Selective "breeding" of plants vs animals- Here's the deal (again) - Plants are not sentient... They are not aware of the world... Without a central nervous system, they do not feel pain. We animals do.

I have "forced" bulbs to bloom on a window sill. A farmer may splice seed A with seed B to make a new variety of melon... Another might cut two branches from different trees to graft them together. None of this causes any harm to a being who can feel harm.
Get it?

When it's done to animals, it means they must be confined, artificially inseminated... Many of their offspring wind up immediately killed to test on - Or because they were damaged or born "dead".

All that "successful" selective breeding does is further entrench these animals into endless slavery, exploitation and slaughter...

Hope once and for all this will explain my position on animal "use". I do not believe in doing so... (period).

Bea Elliott said...

Bruce... Again our comments got crossed.

You mentioned being hungry every few hours... Yes, plant based food digest quicker. But think you can either have dead flesh in your intestines for up to 4 days digesting (and becoming toxic)... Or you can have your system flushing itself out regularly. Most doctors will recommend 6 smaller meals as opposed to 3 large ones.

About B-12. Our bodies have a reserve of B-12... enough some say to last 15 - 20 years! If you grow your own veggies or eat organic and don't wash every last microbe of "dirt" away... Your body won't need "supplements". Many times "B-12" is cooked out of animal flesh anyway...

Personally I love fortified nutritional yeast flakes. It's absolutely delicious over baked potatoes, stirred in rice, mixed with veggies... Blended with non-dairy milk it makes a yummy alternative to "mac 'n cheese"... You can also add it to baked goods... breads, muffins, etc. I like to make it into a spread too... Great on toast! :) This is the only B-12 "supplement" we use in my house.

There's some more vegan cooking tips on these podcasts at Compassionate Cooks:

Bea Elliott said...

One more suggestion:
Physicians for Responsible Medicine has a 21 day kick-start program:

bruce dracass said...

Synthetic fortified anything with soy milk would be viewed by most as somewhat repulsive to repulsive. If you are not wanting you house to waft with the delightlul aroma of meat cooking than at least go out for supper; Or are you chicken you might convert. You have a very wrong idea of what livestock genetic improvement is , and I have never forced a bull to jump a cow yet, or a boar to jump a sow. They do it just fine on their own. Their offspring is raised to determine if there was genetic gain or loss. Some artificial breeding does happen, and an female is held for a short time while it's done,and let out.----- It prrobably takes much less time, than it takes you to take your dog for a walk on a leash. You do exercise him/her don't you, or do you keep him/her confined to the house or pen all the time?

bruce dracass said...

Hi Bea, your not going to like this, as I've known all along, I'm right, here is the proof. From "The Center For Consumer Freedom"..... Sweedish scientists at UMEA University found that young vegans,{those who shun all animal products including eggs and dairy] may be missing out on essential vitamins and minerals. In particular,they found vegans lacked appropriate levels of B12, riboflavin,vit.D, calcium and selenium.------- In a more comprehensive British study involving nearly 8000 subjects a Cambridge University prof. says:"children born to vegetarian mothers are up to five times more likely to be born with deformaties and other birth defects."There is a clear association between child deformaties and vegetarianism, and this is cause for concern. Bea this article came out on July 16/2002 eight years ago..... SLAM DUNK!

Bea Elliott said...

Bruce... Surely you know that even "cow's milk" is "fortified" - don't you?

And as far as "converting"... I've been around meat foods all my life, and this continues till today. I have been offered ("tempted") to eat meat by many, many "generous" people. See, the thing is, most people I know feel like they can somehow sway me with their "delightful aromas". I always try to be polite in my response - But with you I feel like I can be truthful - Quite frankly, because I know what I know... the flesh, blood, bone, tendons, tumors, cancers, muscles, veins, etc... It all is quite repulsive. I'm not wanting to be3 rude, but really - meat eating is disgusting and depraved to me... Sorry.

And I'm also not with you on "livestock" - I don't believe in peddling flesh or killing animals remember?

Oh no! "The Center For Consumer Freedom"! If you wish to bring in those types of biased organization I may have to counter with "peta" after all! The CCF is an absolute joke. A laughing stock! Known to whore around with the worst of corporate scum.

I haven't seen the study from the UMEA - but coincidentally, they just released findings on pancreatic cancer and diabetes. They suggest "People could reduce their risk of developing either pre-diabetes or Type 2 diabetes by being more physically active and eating plenty of fruit and vegetables and avoiding foods high in sugar, salt and fat." As you know, there are zero "bad" fats in veggies... :)
Diets high in cholesterol and saturated fat are responsible for heart disease. American men overall have a 50% risk of having a heart attack, while vegans have only a 4% risk. Vegans consume as much as four times the amount of fiber as the average person, and high fiber intake is believed to reduce the risk of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and digestive tract problems. Vegan diets are also high in protective nutrients that are found in fruits and vegetables, such as antioxidants.

Finally: I will repeat the most recent study from American Dietetic Association:
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes."

I've seen the numbers - vegetarians live approximately 10 years longer than meat eaters... But most importantly regarding health, I know my own physical improvements... They were enough for me to change my eating habit. Add in the ethical implications and for me, it's an absolute no brainer: Go Vegan.

Bruce Dracass said...

Thanks I needed a good laugh. As the veg movement has maybe not been in North America long enough for the vegans to know what they already know in Sweeden and Britain; You can hide your lies for now. But when the truth is eventually exposed and your vegan friends start launching major class action lawsuits against you and peta I'll be laughing even louder. You originally said when I questioned how one with no ag. experince should talk about ag. that was ok, But yet when I commented on nutrition, you said I shouldn't cause I'm not a nutritionist, even though I was sure I was right; double standard. I found the facts and now you seem upset and defensive, which is a perfectly normal reaction when one is proven wrong. You comment negatively about animal confinement but yet when I raise the question do you confine your dog, or walk him/her on a leash, you didn't comment, or did you take the fifth on that one. As far as countering with peta goes go ahead, but if you side with peta's hypocricy, I will get another laugh as you will have to euthanize your glowing vegan dog, cause there is no drawing lines with animal cracker groups. No canine should be kept for animal companionship or seeing eye dogs. Ingrid herself has taken a seeing eye dog away from a visually impaired person;odd as she usually gets someone else in her cult to do the dirty work. I hope you donate till your broke; and Ingrid [perhaps the world's greatest con artist] and her cult will laugh all the way to the bank; and blow your money on more pornographic videos, SLAM DUNK.

Bea Elliott said...

In truth... we can banter back and forth till infinity... Your studies vs my studies - I just don't have the time to invest in such folly.

I know what works for me... I've met dozens/hundreds of other people who also once ate meat - but do not any longer. The points are proven enough for me... I am healthy and my eating is aligned with my values. I don't know that I can offer you any more information except that you might try to be open enough for a possible other reality. Although it may conflict with your worship of "tradition" and with your current occupation... You'd do yourself a favor if you did some objective research and stopped trying to "Slam Dunk" me. On my sidebar are dozens of links that might help you out...

I avoided the question about walking my RESCUED MUTT dog because it's rhetorical. I already stated that he's in optimal health which confirms enough physical excersize. Our conversations have become redundant.

I have tried to be civil with you and respectfully discuss serious issues. However, your rant about peta and ill words regarding euthanizing MY VEGAN DOG - is crass and unacceptable. You are no longer welcome here and are now considered a troll. Please pitch your frustrated hostilities elsewhere.
Good bye.